by Sienna Blake, Editor of VeganVoice

& Thomas Hart, G21 Columnist

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EDITOR'S INTRODUCTION: In our continuing coverage of global food issues, GENERATOR 21 has invited the Editor of Australia's VEGAN VOICE, Ms. Sienna Blake, to debate our Thomas Hart on the subject of dietary practices. Rod Amis, acted as the moderator to this debate and posed the questions that follow.

G21: Thanks to you both for agreeing to take part in this debate. To begin with, let me lay out the ground rules. I shall pose three questions to which you each may respond. After the first question, you can give a one paragraph rebuttal to your opponents position. At the end of the debate, you can also give a brief concluding statement.

First question: In past features, especially those by Dr. Paul Kail, G21 has covered food issues like genetically enhanced vegetables, Mad Cow Disease (BCE) and factory farming. Please tell G21 and our readers know why you made the dietary decision you did and are espousing here.

SIENNA BLAKE: I’ve been vegan for around eight years, and went vegetarian at 16. I’m coming up to the big 40.

I’m vegan for three main reasons:

1. it’s better for all animals,
2. it’s better for the planet, and
3. it’s better for human health.

Vegetarianism is a good start, but it just doesn’t go far enough, incorporating as it does a large use of dairy. The dairy industry is cruel and unnatural. In order to supply humans with milk the modern dairy cow spends 9 months of every year pregnant, usually artificially inseminated. Her calf is taken away from her at 1-3 days old, causing them both terrible distress. The least healthy calves are usually slaughtered at a few days old and then processed into pet food, pies and rennet for cheese making. Some of the females go on to become dairy herd replacements. Other calves are sold at market to be reared for beef production, or killed young for veal.

The dairy cow is then milked for 10 months during which time she is forced to produce 10 times the amount of milk her calf would have taken. Every year at least a third of dairy cows suffer from mastitis - a painful inflammation of the udder. To increase her milk yield the cow is fed on high protein concentrates but this is often not enough and she may be forced to break down her own body tissues to keep up with the continual demand. This commonly leads to a condition called acidosis which can make her lame - lameness affects 25% of dairy cows. At about 5 years old, spent and exhausted, she is slaughtered. Her natural life span would have been around 20 years. (80 per cent of beef is a by-product of the dairy industry.)

Veganism takes the dairy cow out of the equation.

Veganism benefits all animals - human and non-human - because it promotes non-violence or ahimsa (harmlessness). My personal motto is “Compassion towards all beings”. Other animals are sentient beings, like us, and I don’t believe we have the right to enslave them for our own ends, i.e., profit, vanity, or because we like the way they taste. We don’t need to eat the flesh of other animals to live. In fact the opposite is true: we are healthier without it.

The British Medical Association has stated that “vegetarians have lower rates of obesity, coronary heart disease, high blood pressure, large bowel disorders and cancer and gall-stones”. Other research has added to this list osteoporosis, kidney stones, diabetes, gout, arthritis, appendicitis, angina, haemorrhoids, varicose veins and diverticular disease.

Veganism benefits our environment because it takes much less land to feed a vegan. For example, it has been estimated that a vegan Britain could be self-sufficient in food on about 25% of the land currently being farmed, which would free up land for tree-planting and wildlife, amongst other things. Animal farming degrades the land, for instance in Australia, introduced hoofed animals such as cows are destroying our fragile ecosystems. This is happening around the world. Animal farming uses massive quantities of water, which the planet can ill-afford, to grow grain to feed cattle. As much as 50% of the world’s grain is used as cattle feed. Waterways are polluted from cattle effluent. Ammonia from livestock manures can cause more acid rain than cars or factories.

There’s so much more I could go into, e.g., foot-and-mouth, CJD, the huge amount of growth hormones and antibiotics routinely used in cattle feed, appalling slaughterhouse practices … If this planet doesn’t go vegetarian soon the choice will be made for us. I haven’t even touched on a lot I would’ve liked to. I have merely scraped the surface. This is a huge subject and there are many, many books on the above topics. If you want in-depth information they would definitely prove more enlightening than me...

Basically, all I am saying is that animal farming (slavery) is wrong, and ultimately unsustainable.

THOMAS HART: With all due respect to Ms. Blake and Dr. Kail, I think that basing your decision to be an omnivore -- which humans were nat'rally meant to be, as I shall prove in this here debate -- on the inhumane conditions of factory farms is just another flavor of tree-hugging, goddess-worshipping, left-wing claptrap.

First of all, look at the roots of the notion "inhumane." Far's I know, that means "unfit for humans." But your vegetarians and their extremist fellow-travelers the vegans are eating the way they does, by their own admission, because they is worried about the feelings of chickens, cows and pigs. These are dumb animals we are talkin' about here, ya'll!

When's the last time you seen a chicken scratch out a protest message in the barnyard gravel about her intellectual malaise, brought on by having to produce more eggs? I ain't seen any longhorns out on a Texas pasture worryin' about whether they fit into the danged herd. If they's cows, they are grazing or chewin' their cuds. If they's bulls, they's usually looking for some way to get to them cows. Period. Finito.

So what should we really be considering, as human beings, makin' a dietary decision? Well, first off, folks, why are there even factory farms to begin with? It's simple: no way Bubba and Junior gonnah pluck enough Rhode Island Reds by their lonesome to feed all the folks need fried chicken in Grapevine, Texas, let alone the entire U.S. of A. There's over 200 million mouths to feed just in this country alone. It's just plumb inefficient to try to feed a country, let alone a planet from only family farms. Ain't never gonnah happen.

Meanwhile, you got your veggies and veegies wailin' about a couple of unhappy poultry while human children be dyin' of starvation in India, Africa, every single durn continent!

So Ms. Hart's boy in Austin says let Foghorn Leghorn get a few headaches. It ain't that part of his anatomy goin' into the deep frier at KFC anyways.

G21: In this section of the debate, you each have one paragraph for a brief rebuttal. Then you should address the second question:

Let's address the healtlh issues for a a moment. It's been said that people are omnivores because they need meat and dairy products to get the protein necessary for good health and that the vegan alternative fails to provide all of our dietary needs. Conversely, the argument has been made that meat causes major health problems not to mention risks alike Mad Cow Disease (BCE), salmonella, etc. What the benefits of the dietary choice you advocate, healthwise?

SIENNA BLAKE: Mr Hart (unfortunate name for someone who talks so tough): It’s hard for me to argue with your well-reasoned diatribe. Not. But I won’t because I’m not into trying to persuade anyone that humans have no right to exploit other beings. You either get it or you don’t.

I will just say, though, that some of the greatest thinkers that ever lived supported animal rights. I’m talking about (apologies in advance, I’m aware this is a list of predominantly white males) the likes of Tolstoy, Thoreau, Schweitzer, Gandhi, Immanuel Kant, da Vinci, Victor Hugo, George Bernard Shaw, Plato, Dostoevsky, Socrates, Franz Kafka, Pythagoras, HG Wells, Aldous Huxley, Emile Zola, Schopenhauer, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Byron, Shelley, Longfellow, Isaac Bashevis Singer and Abraham Lincoln. So it’s not too surprising that you, Mr Hart, can’t get your head around the concept.

But there is hope for all you macho, Lone Star, meat-lovin’ men! One of my favourite Texans, Mr Kinky Friedman (despite his carnivorous tendencies) runs an animal shelter for cats and dogs. In Korea they eat them. It’s all a matter of perspective.

(Check out Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman, ex-cattle rancher now turned vegan and international lecturer. You might like it.)

I’m going to start calling you Mr Heart, because I like to believe that underneath all that bluster and bravado lurks a heart of gold.

Now, as to the benefits of veganism, and the question of protein:

“We are primates, and primates are all vegetarian with only rare meat consumption by certain species. All the protein, minerals, and vitamins the human body needs are easily obtained from plant sources. The taste for meats and other fatty foods is like a substance abuse to which we are addicted early in life. While we have been struggling - and failing - to cure heart diseases and cancer, their primary causes are right under our noses, on the dinner table.” - Dr Neal Barnard, President Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, USA

Meat-eating nations have enormous health problems, with the so-called “degenerative diseases” and “diseases of affluence” caused by accumulations of wastes our bodies can’t deal with, reaching epidemic proportions. Many studies have linked cancer with a diet high in animal foods.

People commonly think of animal foods as the only source of protein, and are encouraged in this on all sides, especially by the meat industry which spends enormous amounts of money on promoting this lie. Indeed, “protein” to most people automatically means meat, fish, cheese and eggs. There is no link in their minds between protein and cereals, pulses and vegetables - a complete blind spot, as if vegetables actually did not contain protein. People subscribe to the myth. But anyone up on their nutrition knows that the old notion of meat as first-class protein is now generally discarded. Soy products and many nuts are actually better sources of protein.

Both America and Australia have some of the most obese citizens in the world. Humans are getting fatter and fatter, due to lack of exercise and eating high-fat, high-cholesterol animal products which are heartily promoted by junk food/fast food conglomerates.

After a period of true vegetarianism, meat and milk begin to seem horrifying and pathetic substances. The biggest threats to world health are malnutrition in the Third World, and degenerative disease in the West (both social and economic, not medical, problems). These extremes are aggravated by animal farming, which must be wound down before true and lasting social progress will be made.

THOMAS HART: I must say I weren't much surprised with what this Aussie lady had to posit to the first question in this debate. Frankly, I don't think I need to make a rebuttal to the ravings of somebody who is hell-bent on making folks think they need to eat like the losers. Now what could I mean by that? Well, not TO impugn anybody's character here, but one of the best lines I ever heard about why eat meat went this way:

"Why would I want to eat what the losers ate? The Romans were always good for a hearty meal, featuring pigs, beef, lamb, even peacocks. They kicked ass everywhere they went. A lot of those asses being kicked were veggies. Hitler was vegetarian. Guess why we don't speak German."

I laughed my ass off.

Now to this second question our esteemed moderator has put to us, indulge me for a bit, ya'll, as I'm gonnah take a roundabout course with my argument.

Let's consider a few thangs before jumpin' feet-first into this health issue, 'cause I'm sure my worthy vee-gan opponent is gonnah quote from some medical journal somewhere written by some well-known blue-nose. Let me just put it to you plain and simple, if ambling.

1. - Why do we have fire? Ever thought about that, Sienna? Besides the myth of that there guy Prometheus, you ever think to yourself "Why fire?"

   Well, besides heat, it provides a means of cooking. Now I don't know about you, but I have sneakin' suspicion that Grok and Bantu weren't takin' the time to make a fire out on the tundra to warm up a bowl of soy milk. I have this idea that they were thinking about cookin' up some mastodon steaks.

   Hm-hmmn! Hell, I just about smell that burning flesh right now.

2. - Take a brief look at the human anatomy, specifically those teeth called incisors. All carnivores, including us two-legged kind, have them for a reason.
3. - Vitality and competitiveness. I noticed something, and I think you might have, too. Isn't it kindah inter-resting (as the suburbozos says) that a lot of folks who disdain beef, lamb, chicken, pork exclusively or in combination, tend to seem to live in a kindah lethargic and dreamy state? I mean, I suspect meditatin' instead of masticating might have some health benefits if your plan is to be a rutabaga, but your Captains Of Industry --- they's all ordering big ole steaks for dinner. Guess why.
4. - Finally, when considering the health benefits of either of these diary choices, ya'll, consider this: remember what Mark Twain said about "Lies, damned lies and statistics..." Now, if I wanted to, I'm sure I could drop an e-mail to the Texas Beef Processors Association and have one of they press flacks send me some study by a doctor they paid mega-bucks to write up why beef is what's for dinner. Or I could have them give me umpteen scientific studies to back up my argument.

But all I gottah say is this: what do the winners eat?

G21: Your final question: From your initial responses, it appeared that each of you was very certain about your dietary choice and that there was scant chance of changing your opinions in this kind of interchange. So G21 closes by asking: What points of compromise or common cause do you see between you? Is this town (planet) big enough for both vegans and omnivores?

SIENNA BLAKE: Well, to tell you the truth, I’ve never been too concerned about being a ‘loser’. I’ve sided with the underdog all my life and I’m not about to stop now. Winners and losers - only in America, eh? What a way to live.

I challenge you to hunt down an animal (with no weapons), Mr Hart. Any animal: Sprint after him, leap on his back, pin him down, kill him, tear off a hunk of flesh with your nails and eat it raw. That would be the ‘natural’ thing to do if we were meant to be carnivores, I suspect. Humans elevate themselves above other animals partly due to what we proudly call our ‘ability to reason’. I don’t think our reasoning can be working too well, otherwise how could we have gotten ourselves into the predicament we’re in now? (If you think the world is operating brilliantly, then disregard the last sentence.) And I must say that your ‘captains of industry’ would have to be very low on my list of heroes, if not invisible.

The future of this planet lies in cooperation, not competition.

What points of compromise or common cause do I see between us? Is this town (planet) big enough for both vegans and omnivores? I like this question! Compromise - yes! All the way! We need more compromise in this world. Veganism suits me down to the ground, but I’m not saying everyone out there should become vegan overnight. It would make me enormously happy if anyone reading this were to go and do a bit of research themselves; I’m not asking anyone to take my word on the benefits of being vegan or vegetarian. Surf the Internet, go to the library, get hold of some veggie cookbooks. Have fun with it. Watch some factory farming documentaries. (This isn’t fun.) If you’re not vegetarian, try just cutting back on meat - you could have a meat-free day once a week, for instance. And when you do eat meat, spend a bit more and buy organic.

Curious vegetarians could try some soy alternatives to dairy; experiment - if you don’t like one brand of soy milk, try another. There’s so much to choose from these days. Some people object that processed vegetarian foods are expensive, but this is because the meat and dairy industries get huge subsidies from the Government; fruit and vegetable and organic growers, as well as soy product manufacturers, get little or none. Weird, isn’t it?

See it as an adventure. Your health will benefit, you really will be helping the animals, human and non-human, and you’ll be less of a burden on our environment. It’s been said that love and fear are the two motivating forces in this life. I say, let go of the fear and learn to love.

Mr Hart, I’ve enjoyed debating with you. I’d like to humbly invite you to come and visit if ever you’re in Australia and I promise I won’t mention the ‘V’ word once. Thank you for playing devil’s advocate.

Best wishes,
Sienna

THOMAS HART: You sure provide an impressive list of Vegans and their fellow-travellers, Sienna. I could do the same for us carnivores -- from Julius Caesar to my fellow Texican, President George W. Bush -- as part of this one paragraph rebuttal, but what's the point? As I'll explain below, Veganism strikes most normal folks as being a kindah fringe, cultish thang. I don't think most folks reading this magazine knows a lot of Vegans, and there has to be a reason for that, if you know what I mean and I think you do.

So, to close, here's what I think most folks think of when they think about Veganism at all:

Numero Uno: Like a form of religion, Veganism is based on the higher goal of respecting and nurturing life. I'll give you that. But,

Numero Duo: Like zealots, Vegans don't just state what they are, they try to convince/convert you to the righteousness of they strict dietary codes.

Numero Three-o: Veganism has a strong strain of "Redemption" to it that most folks find freaky. It creeps people out when they hear about it.

All of which leads ole Tom here to the conclusion that there are a lot of cultish aspects to this here practice. If the Southern Baptists couldn't save me from myself, I durned sure don't expect that giving up milk, eggs and the repast at a good ole Texas barbecue is gonnah do it. 'Nuff said.

It's been a pleasure taking part in this here debate with ya'll. Can there be some form of compromise? I doubt it. I'll eat more veggies, but Bossy better remain on her guard around Mrs. Hart's boy. The barbie, as you Aussie's call it, will never die.