G21 - MEMOIRS OF THE INFORMATION AGE: "G21 Interview - George Olsen of the Web Standards Project"

MAIN EVENT. A Good Place to Get Started --- a.k.a "Table of Contents"

Home -> Main Event -> MEMOIRS OF THE INFORMATION AGE

G21 Interview - George Olsen of the Web Standards Project

by Rod Amis

To read this article in Deutsch, Francaise, Italiano, Portuguese, Espanol, copy and paste the complete URL("http://www.g21.net/mem8.html") and enter it in the box after you click through.

George Olsen is the Project Leader of the Web Standards Project (WSP), a voluntary organization of Webmasters, designers and developers formed to rationalize the way the medium works behind the scenes. (George is also Design Director/Web Architect for 2-Lane Media.) The most important part of the mission of the WSP is influencing the browser manufacturers, like Microsoft Corporation and Netscape, but many, many others, to accept a single standard for how Web documents are displayed. The WSP is committed to seeing all browsers work the same with the same coding, scripting, etc., based on the standards set by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C.)
Having been involved with the WSP and supporting its efforts, I was very open to the idea of interviewing George regarding a recent initiative which he wanted to bring to the attention of more Information Technology (IT) professionals. We agreed that my IT Manager's Journal column would be a good place to meet this goal. But, as we chatted, it was clear to me that many more concerns outside of those completely IT focused were being raised. Thus, we agreed that those issues should be part of a separate interview for a more general audience, and G21 seemed the ideal place for that part of our talks. George and I talked on 10 September, 1999. Herewith, a transcript of my discussions with George Olsen, followed by a special update on the Microsoft story which George forwarded to me on 21 September, 1999.
SELF-REGULATION OF THE WEB?

A space holder.
"You've Got Mail!"

But my Web page looks different on my friend's computer!

There are *really* other Web browsers besides Navigator & Internet Explorer? You're kidding me, right?

ABOUT US

dubya-dubya-dubya clueless dot com

A space holder.

404 Not Found on This Server.
G21: How effective has the WSP been in producing actual results from the browser software manufacturers? Can you give specific examples?
GEORGE OLSEN: Netscape has been quite responsive. Last fall, after lobbying by WSP, Netscape announced they were going to switch from their "standards-challenged" layout engine -- which they've continued using in their various 4.x releases -- and switch to a new layout engine (currently known as Gecko).
Netscape has promised that Gecko will fully support HTML 4.0, CSS 1.0, DOM 1.0 and XML 1.0 -- [Cascading Style Sheets, Document Object Model, EXtensible Mark-up Language, respectively. --Ed.] and so far there seem to be signs that they're on their way. For example, independent observers have said that Gecko pretty much fully support CSS 1.0 at this point -- although there are bugs to be ironed out. And in July Netscape announced they would sacrifice backwards-compability with the the proprietary version of the DOM they used in Netscape 4.x in order to focus on implementing the W3C DOM in Navigator 5.0. This actually shouldn't be that painful [for Netscape,] because most developers were already avoiding the parts that will break because they were plagued by browser incompatibilities.
The Memoirs Logo.
The catch of course, is that Netscape has yet to turn Gecko into even a beta version of a browser -- although reportedly they're getting close to beta. In the meantime, they have released several point-releases of Netscape 4.x, which has so manyproblems with standards that WSP hasn't even tried to catalog them all. While I'm told by Netscape that these point releases haven't really involved much development effort, we would prefer to see them focus on getting Gecko out the door.
G21: At this point, Microsoft has a larger share of the browser market, by all reports. How are you're efforts going with them?
GEORGE OLSEN: Microsoft has been less responsive. We've repeatedly asked them when they specifically plan to fully support key Web standards but have yet to get a response. However, that may be changing. Last month WSP launched a petition drive asking Microsoft to focus on standards support in its next release of Internet Explorer. According to a Sept. 7 article , Irving Kwong product manager for Mac IE 5 said they're delaying the release of it, in part due to work on their layout engine, which he promised would offer "strict compliance" with W3C standards.
Full support for Cascading Style Sheets 1 was specifically mentioned, and the WSP is trying to confirm with Microsoft whether other key Web standards will also be fully supprted. If it's true there will be full support for these standards, we definitely applaud a decision to focus on getting standards support done right -- especially if that means delaying a release date. And we hope the next release of the Windows version of IE will follow suit.
That said, according to members of the Windows IE 5.0 team, they did make a number of improvements in response to problems we pointed out -- including fixing some specific CSS problems. Win IE 5.0 does offer XML support and nearly complete HTML 4.0 support.
However, our frustration is that support for CSS is close but not quite enough to make it fully usable and that DOM support has some major gaps in it. It's particularly frustrating that instead of finishing off these existing standards -- CSS has been around since December 1996 -- Microsoft instead choose to focus development efforts on implementing XSL [the EXtensible Style Language] -- which is a standard still being developed by W3C.
It's especially unfortunate because the final version of XSL will probably differ from IE5's implementation, leading to the same of sort problemscreated after IE3 tried to implement CSS before it was finished.
G21: That's the Big Two, George. What's your take on the other browser manufacturers out there like Opera, iCab, et alia?
GEORGE OLSEN: While other browsers are of course a faction of the market, I think WSP has influenced them as well. WSP evaluated Opera's support for CSS, which resulted in some fixes in later versions. And I've heard that Opera has demo'd a new version that's fully compliant with CSS -- although it hasn't reached beta yet.

So overall we think we've definitely raised awareness about the issue and are seeing some tangible changes.
G21: Are there other areas that the WSP is working on besides getting the browser manufacturers to accept standards?
GEORGE OLSEN: WSP also believes that authoring tools need to focus on supporting Web standards, as well.
We haven't focused on that for two reasons. The first is mostly a practical one: as a volunteer group we need to focus our energies on first getting browsers to support standards. Which ties into the second reason: right now makers of authoring tools are in a bit of a Catch-22. If they generate standards-compliant code and the browsers don't handle it correctly, people will generally blame the tool and not the browser.
However, even given this, there's quite a difference between the quality of code generated by various authoring tools -- and there are steps authoring tools [producers] can take now to try to ensure the code they provide is as standards-compliant as feasible.
Having standards-compliant browsers and authoring tools ultimately is mutually beneficial -- browsers don't have to try to interpret garbage code and authoring tools don't have to try to work around browser incompatibilities. And the ultimate benefit is to the people who build and use sites. Look at the graphic design industry, nobody codes PostScript by hand and nobody even thinks about doing it. They can instead focus on creating things. Why? Because there's a stable -- albeit proprietary -- standard for creating and then displaying pages.

As I mentioned at the beginning of this article, on 21 September, George sent me a follow-up on the Microsoft story. It was a press release, highlights of which I'll share with you here:

WEB STANDARDS PROJECT PRAISES MICROSOFT DECISION TO FOCUS ON STANDARDS IN MAC INTERNET EXPLORER 5.0
The Web Standards Project today praised Microsoft's decision to focus on implementing key Web Standards in its upcoming release of the Macintosh version of Internet Explorer 5.0.
In discussions with WSP and in a recently published article , Microsoft has said its new rendering engine, "Tasman," is intended to allow Mac Internet Explorer 5.0 to provide 100 percent support for two key Web standards, developed by the World Wide Web Consortium, and nearly full support for a third.
"We're delighted to see Microsoft make a commitment to help lay a solid foundation for Web site development that's free from many of the browser incompatibilities that have plagued developers for years," said WSP Project Leader George Olsen.
"While we'll be waiting to see how well Microsoft fulfills this commitment--just as we're waiting to see how Netscape fulfills a similar promise made last year--it's the first step in the right direction, and a step Web developers have been asking for," Olsen said.
Last month, several thousand Web developers voiced their support for a WSP petition drive that asked Microsoft to focus on compliance with W3C standards in the next release of their browsers.
WSP has been urging browser makers to fully implement these standards because current browser incompatibilities add at least 25 percent to the cost of developing sites, inconvenience site visitors, and threaten to fragment the Web.

a href = Where?

A space holder.

The World's Magazine: g21.net

Event #185: Cathedrals in the Air

JOIN THE G21 MAILING LIST. Get updates on new features. Take part in our Readership polls, shape the future of The World's Magazine. It's easy! E-mail The World's Magazine with the "Subject" line: SUBSCRIBE.

LAST WEEK's EDITION

For Deep Background visit the G21-Barnes & Noble Shop

Holiday Ideas Needed? Try the new G21/E-NEWS GIFT CENTER

OR get great books at the G21 BARNES & NOBLE SEARCH ENGINE

The Main Event

HOME

Discover the MOIA Discussion List

THEY HAVE STOLEN YOUR MEMORIES.
THERE IS NO HISTORY.

THIS IS WHERE I WOULD LIKE TO BE TODAY.

MEMOIR ONE: The Pinnacle, by FELICITY USSHER

MEMOIR TWO: Age of Exploitation, by ROD AMIS

MEMOIR THREE: Is Microsoft Bothering You, too? by RON DIENER

MEMOIR FOUR: The Name of The Rose by ROD AMIS

MEMOIR FIVE: War on The Web by ADAM J. SMITH

MEMOIR SIX: G21 Interviews ICANN's ESTHER DYSON

MEMOIR SEVEN: The Chamber of E-Commerce by ROD AMIS

THE NEXT MEMOIR

+++ Home +++ MAIN EVENT +++ RECOMMENDED +++

George Olsen is the Project Leader of the Web Standards Project (WSP), a voluntary organization of Webmasters, designers and developers formed to rationalize the way the medium works behind the scenes. (George is also Design Director/Web Architect for 2-Lane Media.) The most important part of the mission of the WSP is influencing the browser manufacturers, like Microsoft Corporation and Netscape, but many, many others, to accept a single standard for how Web documents are displayed. The WSP is committed to seeing all browsers work the same with the same coding, scripting, etc., based on the standards set by the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C.) Having been involved with the WSP and supporting its efforts, I was very open to the idea of interviewing George regarding a recent initiative which he wanted to bring to the attention of more Information Technology (IT) professionals. We agreed that my IT Manager's Journal column would be a good place to meet this goal. But, as we chatted, it was clear to me that many more concerns outside of those completely IT focused were being raised. Thus, we agreed that those issues should be part of a separate interview for a more general audience, and G21 seemed the ideal place for that part of our talks. George and I talked on 10 September, 1999. Herewith, a transcript of my discussions with George Olsen, followed by a special update on the Microsoft story which George forwarded to me on 21 September, 1999.	SELF-REGULATION OF THE WEB? "You've Got Mail!" But my Web page looks different on my friend's computer!
*There are really* other Web browsers besides Navigator & Internet Explorer? You're kidding me, right? ABOUT US dubya-dubya-dubya clueless dot com 404 Not Found on This Server.**	G21: How effective has the WSP been in producing actual results from the browser software manufacturers? Can you give specific examples? GEORGE OLSEN: Netscape has been quite responsive. Last fall, after lobbying by WSP, Netscape announced they were going to switch from their "standards-challenged" layout engine -- which they've continued using in their various 4.x releases -- and switch to a new layout engine (currently known as Gecko). Netscape has promised that Gecko will fully support HTML 4.0, CSS 1.0, DOM 1.0 and XML 1.0 -- [Cascading Style Sheets, Document Object Model, EXtensible Mark-up Language, respectively. --Ed.] and so far there seem to be signs that they're on their way. For example, independent observers have said that Gecko pretty much fully support CSS 1.0 at this point -- although there are bugs to be ironed out. And in July Netscape announced they would sacrifice backwards-compability with the the proprietary version of the DOM they used in Netscape 4.x in order to focus on implementing the W3C DOM in Navigator 5.0. This actually shouldn't be that painful [for Netscape,] because most developers were already avoiding the parts that will break because they were plagued by browser incompatibilities. The catch of course, is that Netscape has yet to turn Gecko into even a beta version of a browser -- although reportedly they're getting close to beta. In the meantime, they have released several point-releases of Netscape 4.x, which has so manyproblems with standards that WSP hasn't even tried to catalog them all. While I'm told by Netscape that these point releases haven't really involved much development effort, we would prefer to see them focus on getting Gecko out the door. G21: At this point, Microsoft has a larger share of the browser market, by all reports. How are you're efforts going with them? GEORGE OLSEN: Microsoft has been less responsive. We've repeatedly asked them when they specifically plan to fully support key Web standards but have yet to get a response. However, that may be changing. Last month WSP launched a petition drive asking Microsoft to focus on standards support in its next release of Internet Explorer. According to a Sept. 7 article , Irving Kwong product manager for Mac IE 5 said they're delaying the release of it, in part due to work on their layout engine, which he promised would offer "strict compliance" with W3C standards. Full support for Cascading Style Sheets 1 was specifically mentioned, and the WSP is trying to confirm with Microsoft whether other key Web standards will also be fully supprted. If it's true there will be full support for these standards, we definitely applaud a decision to focus on getting standards support done right -- especially if that means delaying a release date. And we hope the next release of the Windows version of IE will follow suit. That said, according to members of the Windows IE 5.0 team, they did make a number of improvements in response to problems we pointed out -- including fixing some specific CSS problems. Win IE 5.0 does offer XML support and nearly complete HTML 4.0 support. However, our frustration is that support for CSS is close but not quite enough to make it fully usable and that DOM support has some major gaps in it. It's particularly frustrating that instead of finishing off these existing standards -- CSS has been around since December 1996 -- Microsoft instead choose to focus development efforts on implementing XSL [the EXtensible Style Language] -- which is a standard still being developed by W3C. It's especially unfortunate because the final version of XSL will probably differ from IE5's implementation, leading to the same of sort problemscreated after IE3 tried to implement CSS before it was finished. G21: That's the Big Two, George. What's your take on the other browser manufacturers out there like Opera, iCab, et alia? GEORGE OLSEN: While other browsers are of course a faction of the market, I think WSP has influenced them as well. WSP evaluated Opera's support for CSS, which resulted in some fixes in later versions. And I've heard that Opera has demo'd a new version that's fully compliant with CSS -- although it hasn't reached beta yet.
So overall we think we've definitely raised awareness about the issue and are seeing some tangible changes. G21: Are there other areas that the WSP is working on besides getting the browser manufacturers to accept standards? GEORGE OLSEN: WSP also believes that authoring tools need to focus on supporting Web standards, as well. We haven't focused on that for two reasons. The first is mostly a practical one: as a volunteer group we need to focus our energies on first getting browsers to support standards. Which ties into the second reason: right now makers of authoring tools are in a bit of a Catch-22. If they generate standards-compliant code and the browsers don't handle it correctly, people will generally blame the tool and not the browser. However, even given this, there's quite a difference between the quality of code generated by various authoring tools -- and there are steps authoring tools [producers] can take now to try to ensure the code they provide is as standards-compliant as feasible. Having standards-compliant browsers and authoring tools ultimately is mutually beneficial -- browsers don't have to try to interpret garbage code and authoring tools don't have to try to work around browser incompatibilities. And the ultimate benefit is to the people who build and use sites. Look at the graphic design industry, nobody codes PostScript by hand and nobody even thinks about doing it. They can instead focus on creating things. Why? Because there's a stable -- albeit proprietary -- standard for creating and then displaying pages. As I mentioned at the beginning of this article, on 21 September, George sent me a follow-up on the Microsoft story. It was a press release, highlights of which I'll share with you here: WEB STANDARDS PROJECT PRAISES MICROSOFT DECISION TO FOCUS ON STANDARDS IN MAC INTERNET EXPLORER 5.0 The Web Standards Project today praised Microsoft's decision to focus on implementing key Web Standards in its upcoming release of the Macintosh version of Internet Explorer 5.0. In discussions with WSP and in a recently published article , Microsoft has said its new rendering engine, "Tasman," is intended to allow Mac Internet Explorer 5.0 to provide 100 percent support for two key Web standards, developed by the World Wide Web Consortium, and nearly full support for a third. "We're delighted to see Microsoft make a commitment to help lay a solid foundation for Web site development that's free from many of the browser incompatibilities that have plagued developers for years," said WSP Project Leader George Olsen. "While we'll be waiting to see how well Microsoft fulfills this commitment--just as we're waiting to see how Netscape fulfills a similar promise made last year--it's the first step in the right direction, and a step Web developers have been asking for," Olsen said. Last month, several thousand Web developers voiced their support for a WSP petition drive that asked Microsoft to focus on compliance with W3C standards in the next release of their browsers. WSP has been urging browser makers to fully implement these standards because current browser incompatibilities add at least 25 percent to the cost of developing sites, inconvenience site visitors, and threaten to fragment the Web.	a href = Where? The World's Magazine: g21.net Event #185: Cathedrals in the Air JOIN THE G21 MAILING LIST. Get updates on new features. Take part in our Readership polls, shape the future of The World's Magazine. It's easy! E-mail The World's Magazine with the "Subject" line: SUBSCRIBE. LAST WEEK's EDITION For Deep Background visit the G21-Barnes & Noble Shop Holiday Ideas Needed? Try the new G21/E-NEWS GIFT CENTER OR get great books at the G21 BARNES & NOBLE SEARCH ENGINE The Main Event HOME Discover the MOIA Discussion List THEY HAVE STOLEN YOUR MEMORIES. THERE IS NO HISTORY. THIS IS WHERE I WOULD LIKE TO BE TODAY.